Jump to content

Welcome to the Fantheon Community













Pantheon Hype Video













News Ticker
  • News ticker sample
  • News ticker sample
Sign in to follow this  
urgatorb8

Interview with Ceythos about Crafting in Pantheon

Recommended Posts

My notes while watching..

First, the list of specializations, which I think is new?:

  • outfitter: tailoring(cloth)/leatherworker(leather)
  • blacksmithing: armor/weapons
  • alchemy: potions/poisons(potentially thrown and proc)
  • carpenters: bowyer/woodworking (varies on player housing/boats)
  • stonemasons: jewelcrafting/sculpting(glass, relics, idols of clay, class focused, molds for other classes. armor segments, weapon blade or head. feeder profession, consumables for other professions. finished projects relics, sigils, multicolored mana accumulation, augmenting family lines abilities)
  • scribes: spell research / item inscription (maybe improved abilities, rare crafted abilities for adventuring or item inscription etching into tablets or providing a magical pattern to imbue something into an item)
  • provisioning: food/drink (chef/brewer)

Then on to the generic reveals/question/answers, which Bazgrim had a good list of:

  • recipe overlap at end game of some kind (which is odd in the face of a permanent spec choice)
  • class specific professions? (rogue asked as example w/ devices):  ability, not profession.
  • NO limits by race or class for crafting professions (like EQ1)
  • earn the faction to work with a particular culture.. implication of racial recipe vendors by racial starting city/area. (which would require NO-DROP recipes to avoid trivial bypass)
  • @11:25 Discussion of effect stacking vs. replacement of exact spell effects vs. crafted items (sow potion vs. sow buff).  Stacking is the design goal at the moment, rather than replacement. Although this is ... well, history bears out stacking effects like this leads to the need to nerf all of it, as those that do stack everything all the time (potion+bard+spell+item) run around at max 50% while the plebes get 5%.
  • Why one profession per character, justification?: Intent is to mirror the unique value adventuring roles bring, but might be too punitive, might work well, sounds like the decision isn't set in stone.
  • What about completionists? blacksmith now needs molds.. What to do? I'm going to make a sculptor, well, make it an Ogre, now you get to explore.  Ok, great, yes, we know about alts, I guess he's describing Alts.  The carrot for completionists is, apparently, that you get to experience a different culture in game by making a crafting alt that's required.  No mention of the woes, trials, toxicity, and tribulations that have plagued such attempts at player inter-dependency in the past.
  • @16:35 What about those that change their mind about a professions, can they change their profession on that single character? Swap specialization is a possibility... but what does swap mean? You may retain skill points? ( but.. I seriously doubt it, this would exploited endlessly if skill points of any kind were retained by skilling up the easiest profession then swapping to the hardest profession.)
  • Pure crafters vs. pure adventurers; will you be able to pure craft?  They say yes, but then... competitive/guarded nodes?  They're using the distinction between harvesting and crafting to say you can be a pure crafter.. sure, if you're fed all the mats by others or harvest them all yourself, which requires.. wait for it. adventuring!
  • @19:30 There will be a skill track and an experience track, apparently separate.  skills influence how well you do the thing.  Separate level 50 for each crafting profession.
  • The intent is that it would take the same amount of time and effort to max a single crafting profession to 50 as it does to max a single adventurer to 50. (this is.. well, only one game has tried this in the past, and it didn't go so well, but it's their game I guess)
  • Titles for crafting achievements?  If there are adventuring achievements, yes.  Possibly even harvesting achievements.  (Woo, 10,000 Jute, you are a jute-master!  Cue the Master Baiter jokes for fishing..)
  • @20:45 Adventuring game -first-, that is our core game, but we are serious about our crafting/harvesting journey.
  • Rare component requirements, what is the plan to make that not tedious at higher levels;  response is we have to make the core rafting experience engaging.  Vague allusions to horizontal growth opportunities.  Content specific gear potentially provided by crafters.  example given fire proc to add to weapon.  (Arbitrarily adding permanent fire damage to a weapon seems.. well, pretty OP, but ok.)
  • @23:23 There will probably be the need to farm rares. (skinning, killing, rare fish)  Tuning issue.
  • Harvesting, restrictions, or anyone can harvest anything to max?  Yes, but nodes will be rare, not as common as other games (which puts getting access to equipment via killing NPC's very very high on the desirable list, given re-spawn rates vs. exploration rarity)  This is to place emphasis on salvaging.  "It doesn't make sense to run the same loop of nodes endlessly to get the required materials you need".  Hm.
  • The desire is to keep nodes rare to address oversupply, ( yet... you can get supply from endlessly re-spawning NPC's, so something isn't lining up or they aren't thinking holistically, yet.)
  • @26:30 Question regarding tying in profession skill to salvaging amounts.  "loosely playing around with this" rather than just tying it only to salvaging.  This is dangerous territory, tying a supply skill to multiple professions.  Not a good idea, hopefully they learn from history why you don't want to do this.  They acknowledge the fine balance difficulty, however. Further, he describes the exact reason why you don't want to do this (tying blacksmithing to salvaging) as a positive example.  Generating completed items or sub-components rather than raw components is by it's nature exploitive in the sense that it damages the economic loops.  It's hard to imagine why they think this is something they would ever consider.
  • Question regarding using crafting vs. adventuring to complete a task/quest, will this be common throughout?  Where they make sense, yes, but not common.  More "horizontal progression is best, but you're limited to one" doublespeak.
  • @30:26 Question regarding quest specific recipe to fix a wagon wheel versus using the recipe granted for something else, or being able to use a generic wagon wheel elsewhere.  "Tricky to answer at this point", reference to vehicles or mounts in a future update/expansion.  No indication at this point that making your own wagon or even making your own housing decoration of a wagon wheel is on the table for launch.  Summary answer is likely a special one-time-use recipe just for that quest, post-launch, maybe more.
  • Would there be quests that -absolutely- require crafting, as in there's no option, you MUST be a crafter? (reference to the coldain prayer shawl quests)  "Yes, I certainly think we're going to have crafting quests"  Reference here at 32:00 to Crafting, Perception, and Adventuring all being distinct progression paths.
  • Example regarding cultural recipes, learning (as a gnome) how to make dwarven steel; might require a quest chain to unlock that.  Further reference to inter-dependency of Perception (exploring many outposts/ruins) to learning crafting recipes, further emphasizing the need for Adventuring and not just pure crafting, unless again, super rare recipes would be trade-able, which seems exploitive.
  • @33:00 reference to "Inspiration Points" in reference to Forgotten or Exotic recipes.
  • Equipment for mounts question.  If Mounts go in, then crafting recipes to augment them seems reasonable/likely.
  • @34:30 bags and boxes for inventory from provisioners(?) and carpenters.  blacksmiths make lockboxes..
  • Group harvesting?  Short term no.  Everything is contested.  First come, first served.  Despite group harvesting being in Vanguard.  He used time throttling and rare nodes as a reason not to do group harvesting, which is.. surprising.  He specifically described traveling as a group of six for harvesting as a negative gameplay experience, economically speaking.  This is probably the most surprising thing from the whole interview, given Pantheons group-play focus.  Long term? Maybe.  He acknowledges the group-centric game argument.. Tuning issue, wants to see how it goes in selfish competitive mode before group co-op mode.  I guess the other games that tried this aren't evidence enough.
  • No lockouts/timers on nodes, but if someone harvests it first, you will NOT get to harvest it.  The implication is, node location & visibility is shared with everyone in a zone, rather than per player like GW2.  At least the SEQ devs will be happy about that.
  • @37:00 uses the example of cherry picking nodes as a solo player from a group adventuring.
  • Nodes will be guarded.  You will not be able to harvest freely without combat.  Again, no pure crafter path, in the sense of a non-combat pure crafter.  The explicit example of "piggybacking with a group" to harvest seems naive to me, as it would generate nothing but a toxic social interaction, but maybe that's how they roll at VR.
  • Crafting competitions, bake-off, fishing tournament..
  • Crafting in Alpha for first testing is the current plan, may be pushed back.

Overall, my impression is, it's going to be very similar to EQ2 in form both for crafting and harvesting.  Historically, this means every guild has 14 characters (2-14 accounts) of specialized crafting alts, dedicated to crafting, fed from the guild bank or bank mules, and everyone else is a harvester.  To me, it just seems an odd design goal to try and meet, again, when the ultimate design goals of social player interdependence were not met with such an attempted design in the past.  Nothing they've outlined so far indicates they're aware of nor do they have specific implementation plans to address this historically demonstrated failing. /shrug

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I think about a "pure crafter" I think of someone that is primarily engaged in crafting but also participates in buying/selling/trading goods with other players.  This includes adventurers, harvesters, or other crafters.  It really depends on the player but I think it's entirely possible that someone could level crafting to max without having to harvest any of the required materials themselves.  I am a huge fan of contested nodes (FFXI) as I believe when done right, you can better control the flow of resources coming into the world.  The biggest difference between FFXI and EQ2 (that I can remember) is that the nodes were much rarer in FFXI.  It was a night and day difference.  I was never a fan of the EQ2 harvesting system and it certainly didn't help that various PVE quests required players to have their gathering or mining skills up as this contributed toward the economy being flooded with resources from players who otherwise never would have bothered with harvesting in the first place.  I am of the mindset that it should be difficult for players to reach max level in any profession and the easiest way to accomplish that for crafters is to control the supply of crafting components.  You'll be able to get some from adventurers and some from harvesters but how much they overlap remains to be seen.

I would rather see fewer and more meaningful crafted pieces than players creating tons of everything to level up.  Create the limited supply of resources and leave it up to the players to figure out the best ways to accumulate them.  I think there is plenty of potential with the system as it has been described but if you want to create a truly fulfilling crafting experience, you need to allow players to leverage their knowledge of the game and relationships with other players.  If everything is ultra-accessible, it leads to a type of experience where you create an endless supply of everything and are forced to unload it for pennies on the dollar because you have to compete with everybody else that is doing the same thing.  Crafting goods becomes a means to an end where players are trying to minimize their losses while leveling up without placing any real value in what they make.  It also makes it extremely unlikely that players will seek you out for your services because the market is permanently flooded with goods from other crafters who are undercutting each other while trying to recoup some of their leveling costs.  Less is more, as far as I'm concerned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just one logical flaw, if crafting resources drop from NPC's as well as nodes, there is no shortage of crafting resources.

Exactly the opposite is true, especially given re-spawn is the dial for difficulty in this game.  Guilds locking down every NPC spawn in a zone, and harvesting all crafting components from those dead mobs/NPC's, will acquire far more crafting resources than having to hunt down resource nodes.  And that's what will happen, if any other MMO that has tried this is any indication.

I would agree with your assertion, 1AD7, if nodes were the ONLY way to get crafting resources.  As that's specifically not the case with the current design, this design falls down flat.  And for the record, when people say "pure crafter" to me, that simply means you don't have to engage in combat, but can reach max crafting level by yourself.  That's not the case in this design.  You must be fed/acquire mats, at the very least, via adventurers.  Whether or not those adventurers are your friends is simply a matter of efficiency.  In the guilds I've been in, we supply dedicated crafting accounts mats, and the account is shared.  It's not a player, it's a.. service? bot? mule?  Whatever word the cool kids are using these days.  So, as a result, there's no social player inter-dependency.  There's no social contact at all, because it's not a player, it's just an account used to check a checkbox.

That's why I'm so skeptical when they talk about these designs like they're going to work in a way that is opposite to the lessons learned from history.  It just reeks of ... inexperience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/17/2018 at 3:40 PM, greens said:

I would agree with your assertion, 1AD7, if nodes were the ONLY way to get crafting resources.  As that's specifically not the case with the current design, this design falls down flat.  And for the record, when people say "pure crafter" to me, that simply means you don't have to engage in combat, but can reach max crafting level by yourself.  That's not the case in this design.  You must be fed/acquire mats, at the very least, via adventurers.  Whether or not those adventurers are your friends is simply a matter of efficiency.  In the guilds I've been in, we supply dedicated crafting accounts mats, and the account is shared.  It's not a player, it's a.. service? bot? mule?  Whatever word the cool kids are using these days.  So, as a result, there's no social player inter-dependency.  There's no social contact at all, because it's not a player, it's just an account used to check a checkbox.

If you are going to violate the TOS by sharing one crafter account, then yes, the system will not encourage socialization.

With any system, if you cheat, it will not work as promised. The key, is to stop the cheaters and let the system work as intended.

As far as the definition of pure crafter, I believe that is intended to be a character that does not really gain adventurer levels. It’s just for crafting and depends on others for the mats. I do this often in EQ2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
[[Template core/global/global/includeJS is throwing an error. This theme may be out of date. Run the support tool in the AdminCP to restore the default theme.]]